Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: If it's not through play, why would we be doing that?
[00:00:09] Speaker B: The magic is that children are making these connections themselves.
[00:00:12] Speaker A: I think learning a new language is also part of exploring the world. This opens a world of discovery that there are other people who speak differently.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: That's the power of introducing languages at a young age and seeing English maybe not just as the target language, but as the gateway to a multilingual concept of the world.
[00:00:45] Speaker C: Thanks again. It's really nice to meet up. We had a really good first podcast episode all about, what is language learning at this age? What should we be trying to achieve?
In this episode, I really want to focus in on play because some people a little less sure about how play leads to learning, its importance, its role in learning, and yet it's right at the heart of learning for this age. So I think my first question is, why is play so important for learning with very young learners?
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Well, I think that's the way they learn anything, really. That's the way they experience the world and learn about the world.
They're trying to discover things in the world, and they do that naturally through play.
And I think learning a new language is also part of exploring the world. So why not do that through play as well?
So it comes naturally.
But we're talking about play not just in the sense of a language game, like you would perhaps think of it later on with older learners, you'd say, okay, we've got five minutes. At the end of the lesson, let's play a game.
So we're not talking about it in the sense of game, but it's a broader idea of what play means, which could be pretend play. It's role playing, it's making arts and crafts, it's singing, it's dancing, it's storytelling. All that is part of play. Those are playful experiences for children, right?
[00:02:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it's quite a broad category of activity.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: And anything that doesn't really fit into that idea of play doesn't really make much sense to a child.
And they do actually wonder why they're doing that.
And I can give you an example if you want.
I was.
As a. As a teaching assistant, I had the opportunity to observe teachers a lot before going into the classroom.
And I noticed that one of the teachers was doing the what's this?
With flashcards. And so one day the teacher didn't come to school, and I had to go, and as a substitute teacher, had to go and take over the class. And so I sat there in the teacher's chair and I said, what's this and the children said, it's a lion. Yes, very good. It's a lion. Can we all say it's a lion? And they all say it's a lion. And then I went, what's this? It's an elephant. Yes, very good. It's an elephant. Can you all say it's an elephant? It's an elephant. What's this? And then before anybody could say anything, one of them shrugged their shoulders and went in their mother tongue. You're the one who speaks English.
Why are you asking us these display questions?
You're the one who knows English. Why would you ask us what that is? And they were giving me a lesson on how I should be introducing English.
[00:03:44] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: And they're only five year olds and I was getting a good lesson there.
So if it's not through play, why would we be doing that?
[00:03:54] Speaker B: The point of this activity of, you
[00:03:57] Speaker A: know, them telling you, why don't we go on safari and spot animals? Yeah, okay, let's do that. That will be play. Yes.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: Is it, I mean, is this how they learn other aspects and other skills? Is that.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. So there are also studies that suggest, highlight the importance of play.
As Sarah said, that's how they approach the world in general. So children, if you leave them in a room, they'll instinctively start playing. Any object can take a different shape. Their imaginations are so vivid. And if, if, if we approach teaching in this way, not just for languages, but as a, as a whole, that's how we can, you know, foster not just learning, but a love for learning as well. Because we tap into this intuitive ability.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: Yeah, because it's partly about fun, but it's also, I think when we were saying that they don't really have those abstraction skills, the way to learn something new is to imagine exactly something.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So you can actually perform scenarios that can be social, for example, so interactions between two dolls can actually translate to interactions in real life or even cognitive skills. Like we kind of how we can arrange different blocks or construct something.
That's part of motor development but also cognitive development.
So actually play is essential to all aspects of learning. And when it comes to language, in addition to the interaction situation that I mentioned, it's also, you know, an ability to learn new words, understand what you know, what you don't know, but wish to express, maybe make up words which might not necessarily sound like something that we'd want children to do as teachers, but actually it's part of being a language user, being creative with language.
So we want all these abilities to, you know, Come into play.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yes. That creative use of the language. I really like that. That came out in a storytelling session gave once. That was Pete the cat. I Love My White Shoes by Eric Litwin. And Pete is a blue cat. And he's really cool and really awesome and everything in life. It's fine. It's great. And so it's a really good book to instill this idea of positive attitudes towards life. And Pete has white shoes and he steps on different things on the path, on the way to wherever he was going. And his shoes turn different colors. So he steps in strawberries and his shoes turn red. And of course. And so does Pete cry, is the question in the story? Goodness, no. He keeps walking along and singing his song. And he's got his song that he sings because it's all good for Pete.
And so the children took this goodness, no out of the story. So one day, in routine time, I was so.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: English, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: And these were children in Argentina. Spanish was their first language. And so I was asking them in our routine, doing an emotional check in and saying, are you angry today? And one of them very naturally said, goodness, no.
And then I started laughing, and then they all started laughing. I don't know if they knew why they were laughing, but we were all laughing about it.
So that turned into a really nice routine where every day, when I asked, are you sad? Goodness, no. Are you happy? Goodness, yes.
So that creative use of the language is amazing.
And that comes out from, again, a story because that's something natural to them.
Hopefully all children get stories read to them at home, so they're used to that. And that's something that they can engage with very well. And that emotional connection with the character. Oh, Pete is really cool. I'm gonna be really cool as well. So I'm gonna use his words.
[00:08:24] Speaker C: And also the power of laughter making a big impact in that case, it was a positive thing. You laughed and it was something. But it works the other way, doesn't it? When young children swear and the parents laugh and then they realize, if I say this word, I'm going to get laughter.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: And that's what children want, don't they? They want joy in their lives, they want happiness. So they're going to do whatever they can for everything to be playful and engaging, and that's how they engage with everything.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: I mean, the point you made earlier with your previous story about, you know, why are you asking me this question?
It kind of highlights the fact often you'll have a class where the teacher and the children all speak the same language.
So why are we learning this word grass when we already know the word? And it's hard to think of how they process that, except as a game.
Because as a game. Yes. We learn different languages. We imagine a different world where people speak Spanish.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's one of the amazing things about introducing a new language to children when they're that age, because it's opening doors to a whole new world and a discovery of the existence of something different.
Because I've been. Since I was born, I've been using this language, and now suddenly there's something different to say the same thing in a different way. So there are obviously new ways, different ways of communicating. And if there are different ways of communicating, that means there are other people in the world. Because, you know, very young children are very much interested in their immediate environment, themselves and their families and their pets and their home and their toys.
And this opens a world of discovery that there are other people who speak differently to how I speak. And that means at some point they realize, okay, this is a different language. So if there's a different language, then there are people maybe living in different places. That means different countries. That means different cultures.
[00:10:32] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: So really, by just introducing a few words in English, that starts to get their brains to think about a whole world out there. And of course, that is there to be discovered.
[00:10:44] Speaker C: And there, in that example, you're thinking of monolingual to multilingual understanding. But of course, you also get children who actually come from a multilingual background, which is not really recognized and understood until they start going into that multilingual class or bilingual class.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: And that's really powerful then as well, because then it's not necessarily the realization. Because if you're multilingual and you're introduced to yet another language, you have already a concept, maybe not a definition, but definitely a mental kind of representation of the fact that there are different languages. But then I think in this case, it's a recognition that my language matters as well. And maybe I'm amazing for speaking more than one language already.
And I think that's the power of introducing languages at a young age and seeing English maybe not just as the target language, but as the gateway to a multilingual concept of the world.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And that multilingual awareness, or that metalinguistic awareness of the fact that different languages exist and seeing their similarities and their differences, that starts to happen at some point when you start thinking, okay, so the days of the week in English all finish all end in day day Tuesday, they all do in Spanish. Lunes Martes, they end in S, but the weekend days end in O sabado domingo in Spanish. So they start making these connections between.
In one way it's similar in a different way, it's completely different. And what I said before about the sounds of the language with that example about Pinsel, those sounds, how the sounds similar, are they sounds different? Yes, that is all starting to happen. Not consciously, of course, they're not sitting there philosophizing about language, but in some way that's starting to build. And I think it helps set the scene for perhaps other languages even later on, not necessarily English. We're not really talking about introducing English, we're really talking about introducing languages, whatever language that may be.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Exactly. And a teacher later on, maybe at primary or secondary school can actually help children reach these or make the metalinguistic connections much more expensive, explicit, and therefore boost their learning of a language in this way. But at this stage, the magic is that children are making these connections themselves and they might not have words for them just yet. They are making the connections nonetheless. And I think that's something that we can later work on as teachers. But at that stage it's important for them to get to that realization and conceptualization and they can do that through play or through whatever joyful way that the teacher introduces without lessons in the classic sense.
Hi Fedra here. I just wanted to point you in the direction of the fantastic position paper that I helped to co author pre
[00:14:01] Speaker A: primary how to do it.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Well, by downloading the paper you can explore the topic in more detail and discover more research on how best to
[00:14:09] Speaker A: introduce English to pre primary children, how
[00:14:12] Speaker B: to identify potential challenges in the young learner classroom and learn how to address them. Click the link in the description to get your copy as well as a toolkit to help you implement our advice.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Enjoy.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: So I wanted to bring us round to kind of examples of play games play which because at the beginning you were saying there's a lot of things that could be counted as play in this kind of world. Give me examples of play which can help with language development but are not language exercises.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: So I learned English through play. I think our neighbors cousins back in Greece. She was a native English speaker who lived in Greece at the time. She wasn't an English language teacher, but my parents had asked her to come round once per week to teach me English and she didn't have a syllabus and so she would just make a cup of tea in the English Way, you know, with milk and sugar, which is characteristic. Yes.
I mean, it was very strange for me as a child to see that, but I came prepared to the country afterwards.
And then we would sit and play board games, for example, which I know is not the sole way to conceptualize play, as Sarah said, but it was one way that Nicola thought was appropriate for me to learn English. And so one game that I vividly remember is Guess who, in which you have basically each player drawing a card with a cartoon face on it, and then through a process of elimination, like asking questions of each other, you have to guess the other person's card. And in retrospect, this was a fantastic game for language development because you learn how to form questions, which in English is exceptionally tricky.
You also learn words about describing faces and, you know, people.
And also, obviously there is a cognitive development element to it in that you understand that the other person does not see the same card as you. You have to go through that process of eliminating possible candid, which is actually extremely complex.
Later on. I obviously had formal language lessons at school, but I think these playful experiences, the board games, the songs, the storybooks that we were reading together, really provided that context and really served in helping me formalize the connections that I had made myself.
So that's a way that I would consider a possible way.
I'm sure Sarah has a lot more.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: No, I think that what you're saying about the board game is interesting, connected to what you said before about the need to use the language.
We were talking about something completely different. But there is a need within the game to use that specific language, which is descriptive language or whatever that may be.
So there is a need. If I'm going to play the game and enjoy the game, I need to use that language. Otherwise I can't play the game. So that that language is embedded exactly in that experience of that game. And that is. Is where we want to go. That's the language that we want to teach.
But really it's because it's embedded already in that experience.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Yes. I always remember going to France as a teenager exchange and struggling at first because I didn't know the language for things like it's my turn, you know, I'd only learned kind of formal sentences and things which you really need in order to. To interact with other children.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So while you're playing these types of games could be flashcard games, could be board games, those types of games, you.
Part of what you're learning is those strategies for playing games, cognitive strategies. And of Course the emotional development of playing with other people and enjoying it. But there's also that. It's my turn. It's your turn.
Help please, because I can't remember that,
[00:18:12] Speaker C: that I need to get you.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah, there's that natural language that sometimes we don't actually plan for, but it's going to come with that experience.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: And doing such activities in a classroom setting, you can do maybe group work that involves not just two children, but, you know, a group of children. And then you maybe start developing these cooperation skills, maybe also leadership skills that are so important for language learning as well. Because without being able to, you know, understand how communication in a group setting works, or without being able or confident to take the lead in a conversation or any communication setting, then you kind of are hindering your opportunities to use the language and therefore what's the point of learning it if you're not using it? So embedded in a classroom context, play has a really important. Okay, big value.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: I still want to get more examples of play or play like activities you might do at this age.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Science experiments.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Is a form of play.
Get lots of toys and let's see which sink and which floats in a container full of water. And they'll be saying it sinks, it sinks, it floats.
They get excited about that, the concept and maybe getting them to predict before. So you're getting them to use lots of, you know, cognitive skills about predictions. What do you think?
Will it sink? Will it float? And then if they guess, it's even more exciting because they guessed that.
And that's language they have to use to be able to express what's happening in that experience.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Also some causal reasoning like why, why would it sink? Why would it float? If the class allows for it.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. Sometimes you talk about what it's made of. See if that helps us to figure out if it thinks or floats. So maybe you come out with things like wood or plast or metal. It's a metal car, it's a plastic airplane.
So there's lots of lovely language coming out from a science experiment and very physical as well. Yes, yes, yes. But then, then you've got your, your, of course, your flashcards, games, your, your board games, role playing, dramatizing, lots of conversations, pretend play.
And children usually take that into their own play. Really?
Yeah.
[00:20:39] Speaker C: So, so thinking of three four year olds, they're pretty young.
Role play, can that work?
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. Does. It does work spontaneously. If you see 3 year olds interact with one another, they, they can very quickly get into character.
So the, the characters are usually, I Don't know, drawn from cartoons or films that they, they, they watch. But they can also be completely made up and bas the teaching can do like take this, this natural ability and sort of ask them to, to do it. And from my experience, there's no hesitation in jumping into a role play situation. Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: And you, you sometimes use puppets for role playing and that's always exciting. So. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:31] Speaker C: See, it's interesting. Apparently I was asking because when you think of older children primary you sometimes is, sometimes it's a bit more abstract. You know, you might say you are a shopkeeper or something like that, but when you were talking there about characters, I can see how you might link to a story they've just heard.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: So there's been action as a character there or I know with my grandchildren, Paw Patrol, you know, it's the TV program and they can do endless games in the characters.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Exactly.
So again, context is really important.
So I don't think the level of abstraction involved in being a shopkeeper or you know, a more formalized scenario that children won't even have exposure to in their own lives, even in their first language, will work as well as Paw Patrol or Bluey or Frozen or anything else that they're interested in and connecting it to a story. For example, taking Goldilocks or whatever story you're reading and then asking children to act out the bits that they've read or to imagine additional or different endings to the scene or the story that we've read as a class. I think that might work really well.
We've done that with Zog and the flying dragons as part of a project that I was recently working on. And in addition to the main characters that were fewer than the classroom, we had children imagine characters like what other maybe dragons could there be? Or what other animals might be in the forest and so on. And everyone was really happy to invent and become, I don't know, a squirrel or, you know, anything else that they thought was appropriate.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: I had a. There's a little girl, four year old, and she'd never spoken a word in class, so I wasn't sure whether she was engaging with the language very much. And we were doing Little Red Riding Hood and I said, let's do Little Red Riding Hood with these puppets and masks that I'd brought in. And when I asked who wanted to be the big bad wolf, she wanted to be, okay, all right, I'll give her a chance. And she came to the front and grabbed the mask. She was so much better to see you with she said all that. Four year olds, she said all that and she was in character. I'd never heard her say hello, hot, cold, sunny.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: No language whatsoever. And she suddenly said, all the better to eat you with.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Wow. The power of theater. You know, you're not yourself, you're someone else.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: And that, that's a really inclusive practice as well. Using puppets and masks is really good for children who are a bit quiet.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: It helps them to hide behind a character, not feel like it's them being exposed. And that really helps them to come out with all this lovely language that you might not expect from them.
[00:24:45] Speaker C: I would love to get more examples, but I'm thinking what about people who say it's much more difficult than it sounds? You know that there are often what kind of obstacles or challenges might teachers have trying to take a play based approach to learning?
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Sometimes it's connected with instruction giving. Because if you're going to try to give as much input as you can when you're trying to explain a game or explain what we're going to be doing, it's sometimes difficult because imagine these children, children who might know, not know what elephant is.
Yeah. So saying a whole, giving a whole introduction to how to play the rules of something that's a lot of language all in one go. And that's really difficult. So of course the teacher needs to use a lot of their own body to show, to demonstrate. Because words alone won't work at this stage. So there has to be a lot of demonstrating and physical actions by the teacher and showing.
So it's not just a matter of saying we're going to be doing this playful activity right now and this is how it's going to be carried out and this is what you're going to do. We can't do that. So you have to actually become one more member of the group and actually behave as a child and get down to their level and show and move around. And if we need child.
So I think that's one of the challenges, realizing that you can't just use words.
You really need to show and also play with the children and be very physical and very creative because you need lots of playful activities for one session. Their attention spans are really short and you need to make it dynamic. If you lose their attention, you probably lost them for the rest of the session. So you need to keep them with you.
And so you need lots of ideas up your sleeve and be very creative and be very physical and be playful yourself. Yes.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: A fear that I had enough. I'VE heard now other teachers also communicate is this idea especially for kind of the later stages of pre primary. So five or six year olds when they already have some more formal kind of structure to their lessons. And the fear is how do I get them back? Because, because usually these activities get them excited and we love that, we like that.
But then there's a fear of, you know, especially as a, as a, as a young or early career teacher, like how do I manage to, you know,
[00:27:37] Speaker C: then bring them down.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, bring them down, calm them down and move to my lesson. Because at that time we have to get through some, you know. Yeah, phonics or whatever, you know, curriculum based content.
And I'm not sure I have an answer to that. And it's also very classroom specific because obviously some children will be more able to, you know, get out of that.
But usually having some designated time and then some multiple activities, I think to kind of of navigate the process helps.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a session needs to have its ups and downs. Is it you need to calm down and sit down, read a story quietly and then other moments you're going to be standing up and dancing or running around or moving around the classroom. But it is very true. Teachers do tend to be a bit scared of movement activities which. Or very playful activities where children are going to get very excited about them.
And at the, the suggestion I give them is that it's like two sides of a coin. So you've got the movement activity, but then you've got stop the movement activity. So you need to plan for that as well. So you're going to do a movement activity. Fine. Now how are you going to stop that? What are you going to do? You're going to count. Okay, 10, nine, eight, seven. And children find that that's playful. That's playful classroom management and that's also that you need to incorporate playful classroom management just by saying everybody sit down.
They might not, they want to keep playing or they're too excited to even listen to you saying, please everybody sit down. Now we're going to do something different.
So you can't just tell them to do things.
It might be, Simon says, come and sit down and then they'll do it. So if it's playful, they'll do it or you need to grab their attention and it's waterfall sh.
So that's a magic way to get them quiet. But it's playful.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: You can't say ego quiet.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: There was a quietness here.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: It's magic. It's magic. And usually I say use it three times because three is the magic number or not. We don't know after today if there's a magic number or not. But usually use it three times. A bit louder. Not shouting. We don't want to yell, but loud. And then bring your voice down, whisper, and magically everybody's quiet. You can't say, hey, be quiet, please, to three year olds. You won't even listen.
That won't work.
[00:30:06] Speaker C: I really like that because in a way, you're talking about classroom management, and what you're saying is it's playful classroom. So it's not abandoning classroom management, but it's working out how classroom management works in a playful environment.
How fantastic. This has been wonderful. So many love, lovely examples of play.
It makes me want to go to a classroom now and start playing. So thank you very much.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Thank you.
