Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to season 16 of Talking ELT. In this latest series, we explore what digital pedagogy really means for English language teaching and how to use technology in ways that genuinely support learning. I'm joined by Jeff Stead, learning technologist and inventor, and Sophia Mavridi, senior lecturer in EdTech and TESOL.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Pedagogy itself has to evolve to really make good use of these tools. And so right now we're calling it digital pedagogy just to remind us that it's not quite the same as a non digital pedagogy.
[00:00:41] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Contextual factors here is that for a lot of teachers, they're in a hybrid world with technology.
[00:00:49] Speaker C: It is always a shared responsibility and we do need to help students to develop this sense of agency and autonomy.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: There's a huge overlap between what in education we call cheating and what employers would call efficiency.
Let's get started.
Welcome.
Thank you so much for joining us on this, for this podcast series. It's all about digital pedagogy. We know this is something that teachers are really thinking about a lot. They're, they're increasingly. We know since COVID since generative AI hit the scene, people are using devices all the time.
And so we're trying to work out what is the best way to use this technology in order to help teaching. And a lot of people talk about digital pedagogy. So what we're going to do in this first episode is really dig into what that actually means.
Let me start with our two wonderful guests. We've got Sophia and Jeff. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Say a little bit about what you're doing, where you've come from, what has taken you on your journey here.
[00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. I'm Sophia Mavridi. I'm a teacher educator and a researcher. I am senior lecturer in educational technology and TSO at the university, at the Montfort University. And I'm also associated with Nile.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: And
[00:02:33] Speaker C: I started as a primary, secondary school teacher, English teacher, teaching at the primary secondary school, young learners and teenagers. And then I moved on to exams as an examiner with Cambridge. And then after doing my master's degree in educational technology and tesol, I got into the, the, you know, the area of teacher training and then finally academia. But I remember I always loved technology.
Always. So 20 years ago when I started, maybe more 25, we didn't have, I mean, we had.
The Internet was very slow, so we didn't use Internet in the classroom. And I remember using videotapes and CD, CD, DVDs for the students to watch films with subtitles, without subtitles. We use songs, lots of songs we used.
We created a newsletter that then moved to a blog. So I always loved using technology and I wanted to, because I was learning by doing. I wanted to make this experience more grounded so that I understand technology more and how I can use technology to support my students learning. So this is.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Right, so you're an early adopter and you've always been thinking about the technological side.
[00:04:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: Right. And Jeff, great.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me here. I guess I'd probably start on the other side of the spectrum to Sofia.
My background's a computer scientist, software developer.
Very, very early in my career I stumbled on technology for learning and have pretty much been working in that ever since, either building things myself, partnering with educators to understand what needed to be built and then as I furthered in my career, running teams of people who did the building and I did less and less building. So I can't quite hold my head high amongst developers these days because I'm more on the steering steering than the. Than the building. Right.
Always been interested in how we harness some of the new emerging technologies that are a bit cumbersome and don't quite work well for people, how we harness that for good, how harness it for learning, skill development, confidence building, heavy influence on language learning. But not only I've also gone beyond that. So very interested in user behaviors in the app world, how you build compelling learning experiences that make you want to come back to them, that create a healthier habit rather than being sucked into all the social medias that can devour your time.
I, I was chief product officer at a couple of large businesses like Babbel, the language learning app, and their part of the art was corralling and coordinating hundreds of experts to try and build these 1, 2, 3 apps that actually would be used for learning. So you're sort of actively involved in the transition of pedagogical ideas and human craftsmanship and skill and app development and distribution. So sort of on the, on the slightly more meta side.
I'm from South Africa but had the privilege of Germany, uk, California as well. So I've hopefully bring a bit of a global perspective and probably a slight tech fanboy side of things, just trying to find a way to use these unwieldy new tools for good.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. Thanks so much, Jeff.
So I think we're talking about digital pedagogy and I think probably one of the things we want to start off with is just being clear what we're talking about when we say the digital bit and the pedagogy bit. So the digital bit, you kind of mentioned in your, your story a whole lot of different digital technologies you used. So what do you think of when you think of digital?
[00:06:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, these were early technologies because we didn't use the Internet.
The way I understand the digital is technology, what we mean by technology. But when we use the Internet, the tools that we use via our computers, our tablets, our phones. So this is digital for me in a simple definition.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: I had one of these moments a couple of weeks ago where I was using the word digital with my team, a bunch of developers, mostly half my age, building things, and they looked at me as if it was a really old fashioned word and they said, so why you, why, why put digital on it? It doesn't really make sense.
[00:07:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: And I, on the one hand you
[00:07:15] Speaker D: think actually it's just pedagogy, it's how to.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: But, but the reality is that some of the tools around at the moment force a change in how you teach with them. And it's maybe a more abrupt change than your video example because suddenly the tech has its own autonomy and is just doing its own thing. And so I like using it for now as a sort of sticking plaster to remind us that pedagogy itself has to evolve to really make good use of these tools. And so right now we're calling it digital pedagogy just to remind us that it's, it's not quite the same as the, as a non digital pedagogy.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: Yes, it involves technology.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: I'd hope it sort of erodes as a word and it just becomes pedagogic.
[00:08:00] Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: I mean, I think one of, one of the kind of contextual factors here is, is that for a lot of teachers, they're in a hybrid world.
So, you know, Covid kind of pushed us all into online and then we kind of stepped back a little bit.
The development of AI tools again has kind of shot up the use of devices. But a lot of the experience in the classroom is not digital.
It's happening face to face. Printed materials, books are still there, paper still being used. So they're trying to manage this hybrid world which is both face to face print and digital, or different groups of students may be online or not. And I think that's perhaps why they're.
That question comes up, am I teaching in the same way when I'm teaching with digital tools as when I'm teaching face to face or in print environment.
And as you say, probably it's the same rules underneath. But there is some ways that the technology changes the context.
[00:09:13] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: I always like the metaphor that someone made that. Digital pedagogy is a bit like online poker or online card games in the
[00:09:26] Speaker B: same
[00:09:28] Speaker A: scam, but in, in the sense that there are differences. If you're playing online poker, you, you can't see people, you can't read their faces, you don't have to know how to shuffle a pack of cards or anything like that. So digital makes a difference in that way.
But the rules of the game are the same.
You win or lose the same rules.
So in a way you could say digital pedagogy is. Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? Because the rules, the game are still the same and learning is still the same.
But there are changes in the environment which affect the way you do things.
[00:10:03] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:05] Speaker D: Maybe.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: I sometimes think the context is broader with digital. So if you think about the rules of the game from it teacher perspective, there might be constraints on their world. So maybe they have one hour of these students every two days, that's it. Or they can't do outside the classroom activity because the students have got full days and they can't get them to do sort of classroom type of things. And so they'll have a set of constraints and that narrows the range of ways tools can help. But if you start from the tool perspective, you might, there might be very different rules of the game. So I think of this sort of some of the things tools do is elaborate. It creates a kind of mega scale or create new ways of working. So you could have a classroom with 500 students in it.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: What would that be like? It clearly wouldn't be the same as the small classroom, but tools enable that. And you wouldn't even get to that point if you're the teacher sitting in your two hour slots for the week scenario.
MOOC style. And so one of the things I like about tools is you recognize actually these do have value. These, these new new ways of reaching ways of supporting mass numbers of students, ways of supporting flipped classrooms. But not even the class of 30, class of 500.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: And then you walk back from there and say, all right, what does that pedagogy look like? Yes, because that's a slightly different game, slightly different rules, but still useful and still powerful. And there might not even be that much sort of connect between the two. But it's a, it's a nice reminder that there's the Sort of exist. There's the guardrails of an existing classroom and there's the entirely unguard rail, guard rail version of what could these tools do in the world?
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: And so I like tracking both of those at the same time when I think about pedagogies.
[00:11:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. And also it's about how technology mediates learning and teaching and as Jeff said, creates, Enables new ways of doing things. So it is about understanding how this media creation happens and be able to make informed decisions about when to use technology, how to use technology, and I think very, very importantly, why?
To use technology.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:24] Speaker C: And when not to use technology. This is another pedagogical decision and you can understand that through the lens of digital pedagogy that it doesn't add value at the moment. So why using it?
[00:12:41] Speaker A: I mean, there's that framework. Is it pronounced Samr?
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: So substitution augmentation, modification, modification, redefinition.
[00:12:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: And I always find it difficult to work out the differences between those. You kind of feel that they're going in a particular direction. I'm not quite sure where amendment augmentation is different from modification.
[00:13:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: But there. But it is quite a useful way of thinking about is this technology just change? You know, how significant is the change that it's bringing?
[00:13:17] Speaker B: I think, I think one of the disruptive aspects of the sort of AI frenzy at the moment is that it can work in all of those places, the summer sort of roles, it can support quite, quite traditional language teaching and it can do some entirely new definition and some, well, some badly. And we're all trying to navigate that. So I think that's. It's not a gentle transition. Whereas if you think of the Internet being used with teaching, it sort of traveled a more gentle path.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: Yes, I think that's a good, that's a really good point. I think that that's. I think you put your finger on why we struggle with it because it just seems to be both fundamental and quite superficial at times. You know, both those things at the same time.
[00:14:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: You were talking about writing and there are ways that technology helps, like Google Docs, makes it easier to.
[00:14:11] Speaker C: To co write, to co write, feedback, co create.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: And that's kind of. That feels like that's improving, enhancing, but it's not particularly redefining. But then you look at gen AI tools and that is just redefining what writing skills are.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. Exactly. And that's why I find digital pedagogy useful because we understand how these changes happen and what are we trying to achieve. And what do we want our pedagogy to do?
[00:14:50] Speaker A: So I was thinking, I was just running through my head of an example of something. Now the flashcards are used for vocabulary learning.
[00:15:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: And that's a traditional thing.
And there you could imagine a substitution, but you could also imagine layers of kind of augmentation and modification and redefinition.
Sorry, guys, I didn't say that I was going to mention the idea. Just came to my head and I was thinking substitution is quite straightforward. Got a device. But there are ways that, that could actually be enhanced, modified.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: So the modification would be when you start weaving into the flashcards, when it reminds you. So there's this sort of forgetting curve type of ideas. And you get better and better at knowing how many times to show you each card and how many times you get it correct before it falls to the bottom of the stack, which we spent years over at Babel trying to kind of optimize the right moment to show you the right things and what to remind you.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Then you can also build metadata out of that and understand there's a cluster of things that you're struggling with, grammar wise. And I could launch you into some grammar learning as an adjunct to that. So that's, that's all that sort of modification of task side of things. Yes, Maybe drifting into augmentation.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Yes, yes, that's right. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, you're right. There is collecting data as well, which you could, you could personalize the learning for. Yes. In a way which is quite difficult with a, with a print world.
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Flashcard.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: The other thing that we found was that there's certain.
It's sort of obvious to it to an ELT teacher, but different language groups struggle with the same cluster of issues when they map onto English, from Spanish to English, from German to English.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:42] Speaker B: And so when you understood purpose language groups and you had the mass data of lots of other people learning, you could actually be smarter at suggesting other additional detours of learning that would be useful for that particular subset of learners. Because you knew. Right. All the other Spanish speakers also struggled with these related words. So I'll throw those into.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: So that's the kind of fun thing you can do and you have sufficient data and insights and understand the patterns of usage.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:17:11] Speaker D: If you're interested in what we've been discussing in this conversation, you might like to explore these ideas in a bit more depth. In our latest position paper on digital pedagogy brings together an expert panel, including myself, to examine what it really means to teach and learn English effectively in the digital age, as digital tools from apps to AI become part of everyday ELT practice. The paper explores how technology is reshaping the teacher, learner relationships, learner autonomy, and traditional classroom roles.
You'll find practical guidance on thinking critically about technology, supporting teachers with digital pedagogical literacy, and reinforcing teacher agency so decisions are driven by pedagogy, not novelty. And for leaders and policymakers, it highlights the importance of ethics, equity, and evidence in shaping the future. To read the position paper and explore the expert commentary, you'll find the link in the description. Enjoy.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: We've been talking about language learning and digital pedagogy obviously applies to any form of education, but are there ways in which it's particularly important in language learning? Elt?
[00:18:14] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I think it's very, very important.
I can think of many ways, but I have two, you know, very important ways. It is crucial for elt, and one is because elt, I mean, language learning and teaching is all about communication and interaction, and technology enables new ways of communication and interaction. So understanding these ways is very important. The other thing is that skills, language skills are changing. We talked previously about writing not such a long time ago.
I mean, the challenge with writing was to create text that is, you know, accurate, is well organized, that students use transitions to make it cohesive.
But now I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not so challenging anymore because we can use artificial intelligence and generative AI to assist our writing.
So the challenge now is to create text that is interesting, that people want to read, that is engaging, that is persuasive.
And just the look online on social media, for example, text not created by L2 students, but by decision makers, teachers, sometimes educators tends to be. So if you look, let's say LinkedIn, if you take a look there, you see text that is becoming increasingly homogeneous, similar, synthetic. And it is so clear that this text is done, you know, by artificial intelligence. And the author. The author. The author hasn't changed it.
So the moment, I don't know about you, but the moment I realize I read generative AI and not people, I switch off. I stopped reading, so I don't find it engaging.
So the challenge now is to produce text that is engaging and interesting.
And writing is not becoming less important because of AI, Writing is changing.
So we need to teach it in ways that are relevant to what students need.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Now, I like that.
Building on that a bit, you started off talking about this broader communicative Skills and kind of production of spoken word and written word. And I think that's the, the real opportunity in the sort of more digital pedagogies is that the tools exist to really help learners practice way, way more. Practice speaking word, practice writing their own words, practicing getting feedback from an AI on their own writing. Not, not just asking AI to write it, but getting meaningful feedback multiple times a day. Huge numbers of students, you don't need the teacher involved. And so I think there's a real opportunity to sort of scaffold meaningful practice. Practice speaking, practice kind of practice listening, practice writing. Yeah, I think that's, that's for me the massive leap forward. Yeah, that, that I'd love the pedagogies to be able to fully embrace and make the use of, best use of.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting because so communication being at the heart of language learning and yet technology is changing the way we communicate, as you say. So that's changing almost the what of what we teach as well as the how.
But it's also this, you were talking there, Jeff, really about the students being able to develop their skills without the teacher necessarily being part of that process.
So that feels like it's empowering the students that they have more control, could be more personalized. Is that something we should be seeing?
[00:22:35] Speaker C: Definitely. I mean technology does that, has been doing that. It's not new.
Students have been networking, finding like minded people on social media, creating content, you know, short educational videos, memes. So all these are forms of communication, communication and empowerment.
And lately we have of course generative AI. And I want to speak about writing as an example.
I did research and I wanted, the puzzle that I wanted to solve was how students use AI to assist their writing ad hoc.
And I interviewed students, university students studying all L2 students studying for a degree in higher education institutions across the uk.
So, and it was, the findings were a nice surprise for me because it's not that I don't trust students, but I didn't expect to see such sophistication.
I think we underestimate students a little bit and what they can do with technology.
So the use in very sophisticated ways, the less sophisticated ways, again they're meaningful. They are responding to pressures, systemic pressures, such as assessments, such as communication. For example, they say I know what I have here, but once I write it, then my message doesn't get across, so the reader does not understand. So they have this clear perception of audience and this is very meaningful.
And then others use it to habituate themselves with writing norms that sometimes we take for granted, such as reflection. So they say, I didn't understand what reflection means and how to do it. And although my lecturers were telling me that this is it, I couldn't do it. And I only realized what it is and how to do it via AI, because I asked AI. So I have this.
How can I make it more reflective?
And I realize how this is done. And of course, more advanced ways, like students using it all university students, undergraduate, postgraduate students, strengthening their argument, strengthening their voice, becoming more eloquent.
So I think that there is this misconception that students use AI or technology to bypass their learning.
And it was a very nice surprise. And I think that it says a lot that the findings showed that students care deeply about the learning, and they use it to support their learning, not to bypass it.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: So, Sophia, how would you.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: What.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: What would your advice be around the pedagogies, the digital pedagogies that teachers would adopt to. To support that better?
What's the next step?
[00:25:58] Speaker C: I would say trust students, because I don't think that we trust students enough. I mean, we care deeply about the learning, but we kind of want to control, and this is a paradox, because we want them to be autonomous and independent, but we hold on at the same time.
And people don't become autonomous when we control them and when we want to have a say in everything that they do.
So I would say that we need to adopt pedagogies of trust. So this is not necessarily digital pedagogy. This is something different. This is trust students.
And where digital pedagogy is useful here is that it is.
It helps us to structure this relationship and understand where am I needed and I need to be close to the student and where can I step back and let them build bridges of their own?
[00:27:07] Speaker B: I really like the pedagogy of trust sort of framing, because I think to make better use of this wild wave of different tools that are coming out and to navigate our way through it, you have to be giving the student more autonomy. I mean, there's no other way around it. And that includes trust, and it includes sort of a more meta approach on the learning. It's not just what I deliver to you. It's collaborating in this new world. And so I think that's a nice framing, the pedagogy of trust.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: I agree. I think one of the things I've noticed, though, is that those metacognitive skills don't necessarily come naturally and that it's becoming more of a teacher's task to build those skills and that getting students to reflect on how they're using tools, how those tools are helping them to learn, is become a bigger part of a teacher's role than it perhaps was in the past. Absolutely. So without technology, teacher controlled the situation a lot more.
I think. You know, I find this with. When you dealing with the print book in a classroom, you control a lot of what's happening a lot easier. It's a lot easier in some ways. And if that's what you want to do is want to control. Yeah, but the.
With the digital tools, you've got students kind of working different ways.
And so you need to develop in them that awareness of what's working for them, why they're doing things in a way that we probably didn't have to do in the past.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: Exactly. And with technology, it is always a shared responsibility. And we do need to help students to develop this sense of agency and autonomy in order to be able to manage the technologies as well. Not only to use them for empowerment, but also to manage the trade offs. Because there are trade offs when you use technology, for example. Digital distractions.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:14] Speaker C: Yeah. So we need to help students to manage their digital distractions, and they need to want to learn and to develop these skills.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you know, there's going to be people listening to this who are going to be shouting, but my students are cheating all the time using AI and they're bypassing the learning. They're not doing it. You know, you talk about trust, but I don't trust what my students hadn't earned my trust because they have submitted things to me which have been generated by AI and submitted it as though it's their own.
You know, what are we saying in those situations?
[00:29:55] Speaker C: I'm not saying that students do not cheat.
What I'm saying is that what we know is sometimes what we think we know or what our colleagues tell us. And don't get me wrong, we care deeply about the students. And this is not because we want to think negatively about students. We want to protect them.
But many times they don't do the things that we think they do.
And that's why previously I said that that was a very nice surprise because I'm an insider, I'm an educator. I teach students. Yes, at university, but I teach students.
So it was a very nice surprise to see that not all students and in fact the majority of students do not use technologies in this way. The other part is not to look at the symptoms, but the problem. So the students who may be Using technologies to cheat. And in this case, AI, for example, for writing.
Why do they do it?
So because many times we try to treat the symptom and not the problem. So why do they do it?
Do we need to change our assessments?
Do we need to change to make our teaching more 21st century teaching and not to teach like we are in the 20th century?
And again, digital pedagogy gives us answers there.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Okay.
Yes.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: I think also some of teaching is nudging and putting pressure on your students and trying to kind of of take them down a path that maybe they're not even ready for. And some of those pressures increase the likelihood you cheat because.
So I'm sure there is lots of cheating going on.
I'm not a teacher, so this is just secondhand. But I've heard quite a lot of teachers who very thoughtful and enthusiastic about engaging with tech, be really grateful for having set some new rules of engagement with their students. Having you, Ben, you referred to the sort of metacognition side and engaging with that and so doing some similar thing around AI and having a conversation with them and collectively deciding when AI is okay and when it's not okay, and then structuring activities around that. So there might be some activities which are actively using, helping them prompt better to create different tones of voice and different types of writing and other times where you structure the exercise so you can. You can't use AI. And.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: And actually being more thoughtful about when it's okay when it's not. I think if you're in denial about it and you're trying to use the old ways of teaching, you increase the likelihood that the students are cheating.
[00:33:02] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Or cheating in new ways. They might have always been cheating in new ways.
[00:33:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: There was. Sorry, I'm going to say there was a piece of research and I can't cite where it came from, but it was interesting. I think it was Harvard, which show. Which. Which seemed to show this was self reported from students saying anonymous about the amount of cheating they're doing. And what they found was there was the same percentage of people cheating on marked assignments before AI and after generative AI, but they were just using different tools.
[00:33:39] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: So people who. But I think the real problem is probably more about this not knowing when it's okay to use a tool and when it's not.
Someone made a really nice comment I heard, which was that there's a huge overlap between what in education we call cheating and what employers would call efficiency.
You know, they're kind of Two sides of the same thing.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Absolutely. What I tell teachers when I give a presentation. And lately, more and more, they're asking me to deliver presentations on AI, and I. I totally understand why.
So when teachers use AI to support their teaching, why is it okay for them, for us, and it's not okay for students to use AI to support the learning?
[00:34:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:32] Speaker C: So if we see it this way, then I think that it is easier. And this is a digital pedagogy question.
It is not my question. I mean, if you think with this in mind and with the pedagogy and how it creates and it enables new ways, and these new ways are not necessarily cheating.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay, so we. So we've tackled this question. What is digital pedagogy? We talked about what digital is, what pedagogy is, and how it's changed some of the. What technology. Technology has changed what we're trying to do, how we communicate, particularly important for communication.
But it's changed the role and the independence of students and learners. And we have to manage that and make use of that.
And there are lots of opportunities, but deep down, pedagogy is actually the same pedagogy.
I think we're going to draw to a close on this first episode. Thank you very much.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:35:30] Speaker C: Thank you. That was great. Thank you.
