Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: The challenging thing with AI is there isn't a smarter person up above that knows how it works.
There really genuinely isn't. And so the world's littered with companies where the bosses are saying we need to use AI and actually nobody knows what they're talking about. I think we're almost asking an impossible of established teachers to magically embrace these new things. I think you need to find a space to play or space to take risk or encourage that. Otherwise I don't know how you could ever adopt all these new things as well as deliver the excellence that's expected of you.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: If we want teachers to take digital learning seriously, we need to take their professional development seriously.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: I think you need to allow the classroom to be a bit more anarchic because you're now one part. There's the tech and there's the learner agency, there's the tech agency, there's the teacher's agency. It's a bit more of a dynamic structure. So as a teacher, you still control, but you're controlling in a slightly more anarchic way where you've set the broader parameters. You're asking learners to do things because of the tech being used. Maybe it's their own phone, maybe it's AI. It's not all on one platform. They don't have control. They don't know exactly whether the student was really doing that activity.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: I remember a teacher telling me last year at the conference, Sophia, we are exhausted. We just recovered from the pandemic and teaching online and trying to transition and learn new things, things and now AI, we have to learn about that and figure it out.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: As a teacher, you have to stop seeing yourself as being the only person who knows in the room.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: But isn't that just the same as being a parent?
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Welcome back. Episode 3 I think we've had a really interesting discussion about what is digital pedagogy and taking a pedagogy led approach.
What I want to look at a bit more this one is what this means for the teacher.
So if you're a teacher in a world of technology, there are lots of opportunities, but there are a lot of teachers who are nervous or concerned.
AI now, but it could be any form of technology.
First of all, why do you think there is sometimes a nervousness about technology, digital tools, as a teacher,
[00:02:41] Speaker B: I think for two reasons, because there is good pressure and bad pressure. Good pressure is because when we develop our skills and we do things differently and we have to step out of our comfort zone, then there is some pressure. And this is creative pressure, I would say. But then there is the other kind of pressure to appear to catch up with technologies, to appear modern and innovative. And sometimes these pressures are institutional because technologies are dictated to us, to teachers, and we need to adopt them, but we don't really agree.
So, and this is not the right kind of pressure. It is not created.
[00:03:34] Speaker C: So it's kind of. It may be forced on teachers.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:03:37] Speaker C: Imposed on the teachers.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. Without really teachers understanding why they have to catch up with so many technologies and why they need so many technologies in the first place.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: Isn't it also, all of us as humans, as we get older and we progress further in our career, we sort of optimize and optimize and optimize. So you, you've learned a bunch of lessons in the past and you, you build on those and you try and be a bit more effective or a bit more efficient. And so, so I do that in my career. We all, we all do that in our careers. But it's a pretty tough deal for teachers because some of the foundations keep changing. And so if you, if you just leave me to my students, and my role is to help them do the best possible. I'm basing it on mostly what I did the last couple of years and some optimizations. And my job is to try and be as certain as possible that they do as well as possible. And I do it with the skills I've got. Whereas if a new teacher was starting today next to me, they don't have those optimizations because of that, they're more open to trying all the tools and learning what happens. And so they're starting a different point. And it's quite difficult for me as an established teacher, established, good teacher, to let the reins go and to try some new things. I need to be particularly confident that I can wrangle it back into control. Even if it goes crazy, it goes haywire. I need a bit of extra brain space or a bit of extra confidence to take some risk. And it's not a natural thing to do if I'm under pressure as a teacher to do, to do more with less kind of time.
So I think we're almost asking an impossible of established teachers to magically embrace these new things. I think you need to find a space to play or space to take risk or encourage, encourage that. Otherwise, I don't know how you could ever sort of adopt all these new things as well as deliver the excellence
[00:05:35] Speaker B: that's expected of you. Exactly. Because it's not just technology.
Teachers are very busy Human beings, they have to manage, they have to spin too many plates. And technology usually comes as an add on and it's a vicious circle because they familiarize themselves with the tool and then the other tool. I remember a teacher telling me last year at the conference, Sophia, we are exhausted. We just recovered from the pandemic and teaching online and trying, you know, to transition and learn new things.
And now AI, we have to learn about that and figure it out and find the answers.
And, you know, I totally sympathize and empathize, but I think something reassuring to tell them is, but you don't need all the answers, you don't need to know everything and you don't need to catch up with everything to teach well with technology.
And I think this is reassuring for the teachers.
[00:06:44] Speaker C: Yeah, And I think that's absolutely right. So there's this kind of heavy learning burden. There's that threat to your own expertise which you've built up and now can be, you know, you find you're on you kind of down at the beginning as a starter almost. And I think there's also, there's almost existential sounds too strong. But there's the feeling that AI might actually make your job unnecessary, that students can learn without you. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's true, but that is sometimes a message which is being pushed out or fear that is there.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: So it's also, it's also got so much ambiguity in it. Because if you think about, particularly if you think about education in the sort of Ministry of Education official kind of constructs, quite often the way the way classes are structured, the way teaching is delivered is sort of slightly hierarchically driven. There's been some scientific research about the right way to do things, which happened 10 years ago, which is radiated down and is now in the textbooks and it's now in how we structure classes. And there's sort of a smarter person above who can give you the confidence that we know this is the right approach, that I then work within, sort of set some guardrails.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: And the challenging thing with AI is there isn't a smarter person up above that knows how it works.
There really genuinely isn't. And so this world's littered with companies where the bosses are saying, we need to use AI and actually nobody knows what they're talking about.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: And so, so it's this sort of the hierarchy has been slightly disrupted or turned upside down because the teachers are being told, yeah, you must use AI, but we're not quite sure how can you help us understand how. Yeah, and so that's, it's scary, but it's also an opportunity because it's in our hands as educators to sort of influence a little bit how this is used for good.
And so, so it is a bit more Wild Westy and I don't think it's fair that everybody should magically solve it for themselves. But, but there is an opportunity to speak strongly as educators and say, actually this, this works well, this works badly.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great message. So what we're saying is don't worry if you feel uncertain, because everyone's uncertain.
This is also an opportunity for you to kind of take control of the situation, of the situation, to, to empower yourself, as they say. So as a teacher, what are the steps that I might take in order to strengthen my position so that I am in more control of the use of technology?
[00:09:19] Speaker A: I think there's a big question that's a deep side.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's a very deep, deep question and difficult question, I would say, because the first thing that I would say is invest in professional development.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: What does that mean? What would that be?
[00:09:39] Speaker B: That would be, I mean, anything that is accessible. And I mean financially time wise, you can, people can do a master's degree, they can do a certification, they can do some, you know, training courses, et cetera, but also I would say invest in communities of practice. Teachers showed amazing determination during the pandemic and they created their communities of practice via WhatsApp on Facebook and learn from one another.
So this is more inexpensive in terms of money, for example, you do need to show up. It's something that teachers need to do regularly, but it is not expensive and they can really learn from one another.
So I have found that teachers who are involved in communities of practice and learn and share and try things out and take risks, as you say, because technology is all about risks.
Technology fails you all the time. You said something previously that they are.
Teachers sometimes find themselves in a situation that they're afraid that they might go in the classroom and everything might go wrong. And this has happened to me so many times. The difference is that because you know that, you know that there is also always a solution.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
I would recommend building a bit of an explorer mindset which fits your, which fits your sort of talking to other teachers, finding a place where you give yourself permission to fail and try out something and you're not quite sure how it's going to work and even if it goes, works badly in the one class go into that with the idea that this is an experiment in something I found very helpful when running lots of software teams is it sort of seems weirdly similar that. That everybody's under pressure to work harder, do better, evolve the software smarter, and. And it stops you taking the time off to look at new tools and AI and how things could be better. And so we actually force a firebreak. We create these sort of hack days where for two days, three days, the mission is don't do anything sensible, only use new tools, Try and solve a problem that was sitting on your back for years and you never got round to it. Like, this is the chance to play and experiment and be bold. And almost every single one I've done has led us to changing our thinking about how we build or how you use new tools. It's. You give yourself a time period where it doesn't matter if it crashes and it doesn't matter if it breaks and it doesn't matter if it's much more expensive than we thought or if some. If there were some guardrails we forgot.
And I find that really powerful, giving yourself permission to try out. And I'm sure that would work in the class too. It's a time to explore these new tools and just try them and it doesn't matter if it fails.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: Collaborate with your students. Let them advise you on how you're using.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. And also just to add, it's not just about new tools. Sometimes you can use old tools in new ways and this is worth exploring as well.
[00:12:59] Speaker C: Nice. So there's almost on an individual level, we're talking there, you know, you as an individual, explore, try things. If you were managing a group of teachers, what might you say to an academic manager that's worried? Who's thinking, how can we improve the skills of our teachers?
Is there a way Is an approach you would advise?
[00:13:24] Speaker A: I would set some missions. I would say for this term, I'd like four new examples of how we used AI for speaking practice or something like that. I would set a mission, that's everybody's mission for that term and let people bring examples and just scaffold it around that. And then the end of term, you check in on that, see how we progressed and what we learned. I think I would do that.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: I would. Yeah. Nice. I think that we always talk about professional development, but the hard truth is that educational systems have been historically have been very ineffective in educating the teacher and expecting the teacher to find the solutions while doing. And this is not sustainable.
So I like very much your practical example, but I want to give a more broad perspective and say that if we want teachers to take digital learning seriously, we need to take their professional development seriously.
And the first step is just this, to acknowledge that this matters.
And yes, experiment. I mean, invest in their professional development. It depends on our financial situation as well. Invest. I mean, formal training matters, but if we don't have the means. Yes, create.
Structure these communities of practice. Create space for teachers to experiment, to make mistakes, give them time.
Create reflection spaces. Because teachers can learn a lot through reflection, through peer observation, through action research as well.
[00:15:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, what I really. One thing I really liked about the mission you gave there was it was the pedagogical focus of it.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:25] Speaker C: So what is the, what is the learning or the teaching problem that we're going to then try and find different technical supports or solutions to rather than saying let's go, let's compare Grammarly and duolingo or something like that? Yeah, that would be kind of the wrong end of it.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: If you're interested in what we've been discussing in this conversation, you might like to explore these ideas in a bit more depth in. Our latest position paper on digital pedagogy brings together an expert panel, including myself, to examine what it really means to teach and learn English effectively in the digital age as digital tools from apps to AI become part of everyday ELT practice. The paper explores how technology is reshaping the teacher, learner relationships, learner autonomy and traditional classroom roles.
You'll find practical guidance on thinking critically about technology, supporting teachers with digital pedagogical literacy, and reinforcing teacher agency so decisions are driven by pedagogy, not novelty. And for leaders and policymakers, it highlights the importance of ethics, equity and evidence in shaping the future. To read the position paper and explore the expert commentary, you'll find the link in the description. Enjoy.
[00:16:36] Speaker C: What about this idea of collaborating with the students?
I think that that's a nice idea.
It also, I think this, this question of your more experienced teachers, perhaps more experienced with pedagogy and classroom management, etc. But less experienced with newer forms of technology.
So those that kind of make more experienced teachers and younger teachers kind of collaboration as well.
But, but, but taking it another step to actual collaborating with the, with the students.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: I can imagine this could be a fruitful way forward.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that very, very much. Yeah, very much.
[00:17:18] Speaker C: Potentially good writing skills, I was thinking.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah, but there's a, there's a challenge with control There. Because if you think of more traditional classrooms, the teacher is controlling the structure, the classroom, the information, what shared when.
Whereas in that world you're describing, the teachers had to give up some control. You're asking learners to do things that, because of the tech being used, and maybe it's their own phone, maybe it's AI. It's not all on one platform. They don't have control. They don't know exactly whether the student was really doing that activity or on Instagram.
They have to trust that.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: You.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Your point earlier about giving the student autonomy. But part of that is trusting and part of that is letting the reins go a little bit. And some of these new tools are letting the reins go a little bit.
[00:18:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: So I think there's. I think it's inevitable. But. But. But there's probably shifts in how we think about the kind of control part of a classroom to get the best use of that.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: Which is about building some trust.
Learners or autonomy sort of shared. Shared problem solutions with the learners.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Sorry.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: No, I was just going to say, I remember working with a chain of schools which wanted to go paper free, and they had, you know, their course books online and interactive activities online.
And then they were. When they were doing a trial, some of the teachers were horrified to find that the students could check their answers before the teacher gave them the answer.
And this changed the whole control of the classroom, because this is how the teacher maintains control of it is by holding the answers back and then saying, here are the answers. Take that away from the teacher. And then they're not quite sure how to control activities in the classroom. So it's not that it's impossible, but it required a shift in thinking.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And this is something very important.
And I think that we need to reassure teachers that they are still. And they will be very, very much needed, but for different things. Yeah.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: Because the other. The other way that the teacher's authority is.
Has changed is as the person who knows the language best.
Because now you have students who have access to social media, social media, to language, to sites which tell them what's right and what's wrong. So if someone asks, you know, what's the difference between will and going to, you know, they have other sources of information.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:58] Speaker C: Or if a teacher says something's wrong, but actually it is correct in other situations.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:04] Speaker C: I mean, I know as a teacher, I've made mistakes saying something's wrong, and it turns out that it. It was okay in other contexts.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:11] Speaker C: And. And students are gonna, you know, have access to those sources of information. So as a teacher, you have to stop seeing yourself as being the only person who knows in the room.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: But isn't that just the same as being a parent? Right.
My children know they absolutely shouldn't take what I say is absolute gold standards. But it's a helpful start.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's exactly that. Yes. So teach us to get a sense of control of the environment. I mean, is it that they simply accept that they're not in control or. Or that their role of control has changed in some way with regards to
[00:20:52] Speaker B: the classroom, to students or to the technology?
[00:20:57] Speaker C: To the learning process.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: To the learning process.
[00:21:00] Speaker C: And in the classroom.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: In the classroom. I mean, not controlling everything. I mean they have control, they have choice when it comes to organizing the lesson.
But the roles are changing.
Students don't need us for improvement information sometimes they don't need us to practice their speaking, their fluency if there's, you know, they're into self directed learning and they don't need us for feedback so much. They don't rely on our feedback. They much appreciate our feedback, perhaps on the last product.
But there are ways. They find their ways, you know, to receive feedback.
But where are we still important? And perhaps more important is because we know pedagogy and we know it very well. It's about identifying the ways that we are very, very much needed. And this is to help them make sense of these changing roles. For example, yesterday I was speaking to my students at university, PhD students. So I know that they are advanced students. But you can grade the language and you can the message if you like.
So they were asking me, can we use artificial intelligence to do our literature reviews? And the answer is, I have no problem whatsoever. Go ahead and use artificial intelligence. And two lectures back, we all together, we looked at ways that we can use artificial intelligence to help with coherence, which is one skill of writing, which is still very important.
But I told them that it wouldn't be wise for you to use artificial intelligence in this chunk and then your own and then artificial intelligence and then it's not going to be the same voice.
And I'm able to see it because I know about writing.
So make sure it is your voice throughout.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: And if this is the way you can use artificial intelligence to assist your writing, then this is absolutely fine. One reason is because they will be using it anyway. Yeah, let's be real. And the other is that we do need to help them to get these new ways that they may not be aware of. Because they are not teachers. They don't know pedagogy. They learn by doing.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: Go back to your kind of point at the beginning. I think if your way of managing a classroom is sort of mechanical, mechanisms of control hand in things. At the same time. Answer a question. At the same time, I think you have to give up those.
I think you need to allow the classroom to be a bit more anarchic because you're now one part. There's the tech and there's the learner agency, there's the tech agency, there's the teacher's agency. It's a bit more a dynamic, dynamic structure. So as a teacher, you still control, but you're controlling in a slightly more anarchic way where you've set the broader parameters. But actually you need to give students the space to own parts of the classroom and you need the tech to drive some parts of it too. So I think it's a. You're sort of loosening the reins and you're. You're operating at a slightly more meta level.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. And with technology, as we said previously, it's always shared responsibility and we need to give these students the space and help them to develop this kind of autonomy. So. Because when to go back to writing, when they use artificial intelligence to assist the writing, there's so many decisions that they need to make. What am I going to do with the output? Does the output has embedded bias? For example, how am I going to change it? How am I going to use it to support. Support my learning? And these questions are not straightforward.
So they do need this level of independence and autonomy and they cannot develop it when we want to control everything. So we do need to give them the space.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's really nice to any teachers worried about anarchic approaches. I think dynamic is the word we're directing even.
But. But you're right, there is a dynamic there with different kind of agencies going on and thinking of the teacher there. The teacher is trying to monitor where learning is happening, where there are learning needs which might be on the what or it might be the how. It might be a student is lacking confidence.
It might be the student is getting stuck on details of accuracy and form and you're trying to move them along. So your role is there to monitor and to spot needs and to find solutions.
But you're not the only person who is kind of controlling the actual learning process.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: We also spoke about the importance as a teacher to find the time to learn and experiment and try new things with other peers. With other teachers.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: So that you actually owe it to yourself to invest that, to find ways of investing that time.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:34] Speaker C: How interesting.
In some ways, scary time to be a teacher. In some ways, exciting time to be a teacher.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: I think it's exciting. I think it's exciting.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Probably both.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Probably both. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: So thank you so much. I think we really I think we dealt with that topic really well.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Enjoyed that. Thank you.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
