Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hey everyone, and welcome to talking ELT, the easiest place to learn about the big trends in language teaching. Today we're continuing our conversation about self regulated learning with Nathan, Hayo and Fleur.
Last episode, we touched on the way that school managers, policymakers and institutions play a role in supporting and sometimes hindering learners abilities to self regulate. This time I want to continue the conversation and explore the reasons why schools have sometimes struggled to promote self regulated learning.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: So when we're looking at the broader picture and the role that institutions have in supporting self regulation, what barriers are there? Why have these problems arisen?
[00:00:58] Speaker C: I think the easy one to point a finger at is standardized testing.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:01:03] Speaker C: And that's not because I think that standardized testing is unnecessary or something like that. I do believe that we need some kind of assessment practices and some way to evaluate whether learning is taking place or not. But I think that in many or most contexts, standardized tests have too much of a prominent role.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: And the test is on very specific types of knowledge and focuses a lot on the product of learning and not on the process as we talked about before.
Of course there's a whole lot of ideas on how to innovate standardized testing and that sort of thing, which we don't really have time to get into that much today, but I think for me that's the main issue that I believe we're dealing with.
[00:01:49] Speaker D: You're right. If that were to change suddenly, I think you'd find institutions would be more willing to embrace it, because if it's not tested, then there'll always be a sense of, well, do we really need it? It's just a nice, fluffy thing that you can do on the side and it doesn't really matter.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:02:04] Speaker D: And actually it does. In the real world, this stuff really does matter.
[00:02:08] Speaker E: Yeah. And it's really interesting to see the mismatch because I regularly look at these sorts of national or regional policy documents and quite often they do actually mention, even if they don't use the specific term, self regulated learning. For example, in Japan there's talk of active learning, which basically, when you look at it in detail, essentially is the kinds of things that we're talking about. So the Ministry of Education in Japan wants teachers to help learners, become active learners. So that sounds very promising. But then in that particular country and many other countries in the region, the testing regime is such that individual teachers, that's difficult to actually make happen in the classroom because my learners are not going to be prepared for the tests. And I think we actually mentioned this example in the paper is the idea of, for example, self assessment, which of course is a key skill of a self regulated learner is the ability to take a step back, ask yourself, hey, this is what I set out to learn. How am I doing? Am I actually making progress? Am I achieving my goals, et cetera? Well, that in some ways goes against what a standardized test is about. So if my ability to assess my own learning is not recognized, if I don't receive any credit or recognition for that, you know what I mean? So it's really challenging for teachers and schools, for institutions to then make it work somehow.
[00:03:42] Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. Because self assessment is something that a lot of schools are keen on, but just within the confines of the classroom and where it stays and doesn't go any further.
And it should go further.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It needs to be more of a holistic skill that makes a lot of sense.
[00:03:56] Speaker E: But given that we have this issue, maybe we can, because that's kind of a downer, isn't it? It's like, okay, well, that's terrible. So what are we going to do about it? I guess given that we all and anyone listening or watching and us here, all of us teach work within certain constraints, right? Yes. Nobody has unlimited time, unlimited resources.
Exactly. So this is simply one of the constraints that many of us face. And I guess the question that teachers, many teachers have is, well, how can we best navigate it? We can wish it away, but that's not going to change anything. So for now, we're in this environment. What can we do to overcome that? Right?
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:46] Speaker C: And I think touching on the idea before, I think I made the distinction between focusing on product and process and how most standardized testing is just about product. But I think, again, linking to some of the ideas that we discussed before about a learner role model, for example, or a successful student to come in and to share maybe how they achieved their success by focusing on the process slightly more, carving out a bit of time for it, I think the product will naturally improve as well. So it's not the idea of no one's suggesting that we don't need testing or that the standardized testing should be thrown out the window and we should only focus on learners reflections on their own learning. I think there's a balance to be had there and I don't think it's a clear dichotomy. I think they feed into each other. A focus on process improves product and I think.
[00:05:39] Speaker E: Absolutely, yeah, well said.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a balance I think we should be striving for and a bit.
[00:05:44] Speaker D: Of peer to peer coaching I find good as well. If you get somebody who's better at the subject, pair them up for a bit and they can talk through areas that the other person's struggling with, that's something that works well as well.
[00:05:54] Speaker E: Yeah, and just continuing on the same issue.
And again, this is where the framework probably will come in handy because you can ask questions about each of the three different levels. So you can ask as a school or as an individual teacher, I suppose you can say, well, in our country, in our region, what are the expectations? And you might say, well, look, it talks about term x, but actually we could implement that. We could make that happen in our particular school by doing these different things. So for example, active learning can involve self reflection or learners monitoring their own progress, et cetera. But it's recognizing that it is actually out there that you're being asked to do it. Because a lot of times we don't recognize what is being said or demanded, especially in those types of documents because most teachers don't normally go out and read 100 page policy documents for fun. But if you do as a school, figure out what some of the expectations are, and if you can attune them to what you as a community actually aspire to, then that gives you some leeway to make some changes while still conforming to the existing requirements, if that makes sense.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:16] Speaker C: And I think again, it's interesting, just like the model that we've proposed in the paper, we're coming back and forth between higher and more macro and micro.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Levels, between managerial, societal and pedagogical teacher. Exactly.
[00:07:31] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: To put it back into the classroom. Now, even something like self reflection can be assessed, and I've argued this in several presentations recently, where for a learner reflecting on a task, for example, who's documenting the process that they went through in order to complete that task, what is the depth of their reflection?
As someone who's assessing their reflection, it's not whether or not they were self regulated all the time or they used the most effective strategies. But what is that engagement with the reflection process? Like, are they able to describe it in detail? Are they able to be critical of their own learning practices?
That's an interesting, I don't know, maybe that is a dichotomy that I'm proposing now, but that even something like self reflection can be assessed from a slightly different perspective.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:08:18] Speaker E: For sure. Yeah. It's interesting, as you say, we keep jumping between the different levels, which is a good thing. Right. Because that's what we argue for in the paper is that all of these different levels need to come together. So going back up the model again a little bit at the institutional level and by extension the managerial level, I think what organizations, schools, universities, whatever the case may be, can do really to support teachers and learners is be clear about what is expected, set clear guidelines and goals, expectations around such things like self regulated learning. Because in many cases an individual teacher, especially, maybe someone who is new to a particular school or certainly a part time teacher, a lot of teachers work for three, four, five different institutions. It's difficult to know what exactly we're working towards, right? And some schools have slogans or vision statements or mission statements. But you'll be amazed, and I've done some research on this myself, how little shared knowledge and understanding there is of what a particular organization actually stands for, what it wants to achieve, and how powerful it can be when people do have a shared understanding and when they do actively work together to manifest that aspiration. And so if we look at something like self regulated learning, if a school says, well, yeah, we really, really want to prepare our learners for future learning.
We want our learners to be ready for the workplace, whatever the case may be. Okay, great. Now if you're a manager, if you're a leader ahead of department, curriculum developer, whatever the case may be, you say, okay, great. Now let's make sure that we communicate that to all the different stakeholders, teachers, parents, maybe support staff, et cetera. So there's a lot of benefit that can come from just simply clarifying and communicating what the aspirations are.
[00:10:07] Speaker D: You're turning words into actions, isn't it? Because otherwise you've got a mission statement and you think, well, and so what does that mean in reality? What are we going to do with it?
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Well, I think this actually touches on an interesting point because we've talked a lot about at this top level, we've got managers, we've got institutions, we've got national policies which may want, may have a vision for, or may want to implement self regulated learning and help learners become more autonomous. And you've got, at the pedagogical level, teachers trying to do the same thing.
And I suppose one of the questions which comes up is, and I think we've already touched on this a little bit, but it would be great to get some more depth on it, how can these two levels work together and close the loop to really make sure that learners are developing these skills?
[00:10:54] Speaker D: That's the question, isn't it?
[00:10:57] Speaker E: Well, let me attempt a beginning of an answer, and then we can all.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Chip in, but when you get lost, one of us will take over.
[00:11:06] Speaker E: I would say that although there's many, many possible answers to these questions and many possible entry points, managers, and by that term, I mean really sort of those who mediate between the person at the chalk face and the wider organization.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:22] Speaker E: It could be a direct line manager or head of department. Head of department or a principal or what have you. People in those types of positions who are usually there for longer than perhaps the part time teachers or the relief teachers who may come and go have an extra responsibility to both be informed about what happens at the pedagogical level and then communicate that to the different stakeholders across the organization and vice versa. So, for example, if Nathan is on our team and he's doing some really interesting things with assessing learners'ability to monitor their own progress or set meaningful goals, et cetera, well, then that shouldn't stay in Nathan's classroom. If that aligns with our institutional, our school's aspirations, then that is something that should be shared across the wider team and of course, also the other way around from, you know, what happens in other parts of the organization, you know, to the classroom.
[00:12:29] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Because I can think of teachers who've been really good, and I thought, oh, I didn't think of that. Sometimes you find out about it by accident and think, oh, I should have been doing that. And then you sort of make a note thinking, oh, yes, I could do that as well. But, yeah, if there's something more systematic for sharing good practice, that would really help.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: And I think there's a fine balance there between engaging in interaction with teachers and people at the managerial level and monitoring and micromanaging. So I think that the important thing to emphasize, at least from my perspective, is that interaction taking place and that it's not reporting to us at the end of each term about your success stories or what you've done. But it's just an ongoing discussion that can start at a very grassroots level with teachers, and then it can go up to a departmental level and maybe sharing different ideas. And just like we always emphasize pair work and learning from a peer, this is learning from a teacher peer. It's the same kind of strategy, sharing and awareness, and that is in interaction with those at slightly higher levels as well. So it's not a monitoring and, okay, oh, no, I need to create a success story that I can share at the meeting next week.
[00:13:44] Speaker E: It's organic. It should be.
[00:13:45] Speaker D: Way to kill it off, isn't it?
[00:13:46] Speaker E: If you do that right definitely. The flip side of that, of course, is also that there is a responsibility and onus on the organization, and especially those at the managerial level, to provide support. Of course, teachers. It's not just communicating, but it's also providing, proactively providing teachers with, well, maybe some time, maybe some training, maybe some feedback, maybe a buddy system. Nathan's very good at Flora. Maybe, you know, you can work, you know, you can help me.
So there's a responsibility on the organization to really tie it all together, I suppose, is for an organization to be successful at supporting self regulated learning or the development of self regulated learning. Ideally, the organization needs to be itself a self regulated learner or learning organization. Right. Which means that it itself and all the people in it need to have systems in place to set clear goals, to monitor what's going on, to monitor progress, to assess whether or not it's actually achieving its goals. Right. And so that's a really interesting, it's almost a philosophical conundrum or a mismatch that you sometimes see. You see individuals, whether they be managers or teachers or materials designers, working really hard on trying to achieve these goals, but the organization isn't actually operating in the same way.
[00:15:20] Speaker D: Yeah, well, direction's got to come from the top, isn't it? I mean, that's key. Or else you will always have disparate bits of good practice, but nothing as a coherent whole.
So, yeah, I think that is the key thing.
[00:15:34] Speaker C: Yeah. Aligning that vision with the practice and keeping that engagement in dialogue, I think is kind of the main point of emphasis for me in all of this.
[00:15:46] Speaker E: It builds over time a self sustaining community. Right. Because if we're now regularly communicating with each other, we're collaborating, we're supporting each other, and manager is actually providing support. The organization offers some time for me to do this, then that will change all sorts of practices and expectations, for example, on something as practical as hiring new staff. Because now when we're looking for a new teacher, we're not just asking how many years teaching experience do you have? But also are you actually able, and can you show some evidence of your ability to prepare learners for lifelong learning, for example? Right. Because that's what we do here. That's part of who we are. And then what you get is a self sustaining and educationally sustainable cycle.
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, that's so important. That's so important. There's a big push for teaching statements. And what is your teaching philosophy? And I think it's maybe a potential reframing of that is here is our philosophy and as you said, this is what we do. In very simple terms, this is what we do here. And is your philosophy in alignment with ours, or can it be? I think again, if we're talking about new teachers, especially teachers in their first few years applying for positions, maybe they don't have that all worked out philosophically in a statement that they can present very clearly in an interview or in a job application.
But are they willing, are they willing to attempt to bring themselves into that kind of alignment with the greater aims of the organization?
[00:17:20] Speaker E: Well, just a slight pushback there, I think. Actually this type of thinking and reflection offers opportunities for young or new teachers where they usually are, shall we say, somewhat disadvantaged compared with more senior, more experienced teachers. Because as a new recruit or a new applicant, you're not going to compete against somebody who's got 20 years of teaching experience, right. You're not going to be able to outperform that person on the job application process, however, even if it's still a developing and emerging. But if you have a clear personal set of convictions and ideas and beliefs, and if you're able to communicate those, then a prospective employer can say, yeah, you would fit in very nicely. You might not quite have the years of experience that we'd ideally like, but yeah, you would be a good fit for our community.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: Right?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I totally agree, and I'm not sure that was pushback, actually. I think we're kind of speaking on the same thing, to be honest. It's that even that person without the experience, and maybe they don't have the terms to relate what they're doing and what they're interested in. But if it's clear at the institutional level and can that person come into alignment with that?
[00:18:37] Speaker B: And I think all of that comes back to what Fleur said earlier about when you have these mission statements and these philosophies as a school and as an individual teachers, it's about then coming up with policies and processes and approaches that put them into action.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to this episode of talking ELT, the easiest place to learn about the big issues in language teaching. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you want to learn more about this issue and others like it. You can also get practical advice and resources on this topic by downloading our position paper. Just follow the link in the description.
Close.
