Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: So some students are constantly motivated by integrating. Some students really aren't. They're much more independent and don't find any real motivational value of being in a group.
But some will have no motivation on their own or very little. Put them in a group and suddenly motivation to participate will flow.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: You're jumping through the hoops or getting the dopamine kicks, but you reach a point where you're going, when am I.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Going to say this?
[00:00:33] Speaker C: But how engaged is that person with their. That activity at that point?
[00:00:37] Speaker B: They're not really learning.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: They're not really. They're not really learning. They're not really engaged either.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Would they value being praised by their peers more than. Well, I think they would. I think if they, let's say, posted something online and get likes from their own peer community.
[00:00:51] Speaker C: You can't hide in the classroom on the same level you can online. And I thought that was a really important point about the value of developing certain social skills, interpersonal skills, through being in a physical classroom, which you don't have to do online.
[00:01:14] Speaker D: Great to see you again. First podcast was very much about motivation. In this podcast, we're going to be looking much more at social learning and what we mean by that. I mean, let me throw out the question first.
What is the difference between.
What are some of the differences between learning a language on your own to compare to learning in a group, in a class? So on your own, you might think of something like Duolingo, where you're just interacting with an app.
Are there any differences?
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Well, in terms of motivation, it's. I think it's, you know, it's the thing that's motivating you so on. On your own. I think it's that freedom to do what you want. It's the little dopamine hits the, the successes, the getting things right. It can be quite addictive, actually. It's that style of motivation where you just do another one. Right. I'm going to use something different. I'm going to watch something else. I think when you're in a classroom, it's social motivation. It's. Or integrative motivation, isn't it? I think Howard Gardner sort of concept there.
Students are only interested really in integrating and being part of that group.
So some students are very constantly motivated by integrating. It's, I think, a big difference. Some students really aren't. They're much more independent and don't find any real motivational value of being in a group.
But some will have no motivation on their own or very little put them in a group and suddenly motivation to participate will flow.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: I think there's things like relevance as well, is very different between the two.
An app.
At the moment, they don't appear to be bespoke lessons. They're kind of. You learn these phrases and so you do have. Apart from the dopamine element of it. It's like I asked some friends of mine over the weekend who've been learning different languages on Duolingo if they could, if they still use it, and if they don't, then why not? And they, all of them who'd stopped said it was because they found themselves learning sentences like, and I'm going to read from the things I wrote down.
Various friends of mine have tried to learn Korean and apparently I like bad boys is one of the things that you're supposed to learn.
And this is it. They're going, they, they reached a point where this was coming back. Why am I even bothering to learn this?
And then, because those things were irrelevant, gave up. And the one from the Dutch course made me laugh most was my. My rhinoceros is hungry is apparently one of the sentences that you're supposed to learn. And it's, you know, you're, you're going, you're jumping through the hoops, you're getting the dopamine kicks, but you're not seeing exactly. You, you reach a point where you're going, when am I ever going to say this?
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Whereas in a face to face classroom, a real group, you can say how you can kind of, you can lead the conversation, you can change it, you can speak to a teacher, you can get your colleagues, your classmates to change the subject. You can.
[00:04:34] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: You can always see a reason or nearly always see a reason.
[00:04:38] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: For why you're being asked to say something.
Yeah. Even if it's just a sort of.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Language game in the classroom.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: In that moment, it's about interacting.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: It is. And it is a game in that moment. Rather than every time I go on. It's this sort of perpetual clicking game.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's always real. There's always a real authentic context, really, in the classrooms.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: And the belonging thing is key as well. That you were saying about how some students are less motivated in that sense. Yeah. But I think a very, very key part of the student, of the. Sorry. The teacher's role is to build the rapport and build the group dynamic. And when I was teaching on Zoom in the pandemic, that was the one thing I really, really noticed made a huge difference was how much connection there was between the students and the teacher and between.
And between the students. And that's when I really saw how important that sense of being connected to each other and to where we are.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Do you mean how little connection there was on the zoom?
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Well, on zoom, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's where it became apparent that the progress seemed much slower because. And then you sit going, gosh, why? Normally this works, you know, and then it's. And it's not working and turn taking is not working. And.
And so even in breakout rooms, there was that weird turn taking thing of, okay, who's going to speak first? You know, when you're in a breakout room.
And since the pandemic and lockdown and online teaching, I think personally I've made that connectedness one of the key focuses in the classroom because it just became so clear that was not just about motivation, but actually learning outcomes as well. The two things are really, really interconnected.
[00:06:38] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Now, I think the one thing you don't get in the classroom, of course, is, is autonomy. You don't get to call the shots in the classroom. Well, I mean, if it's really skilled teacher could, could work it in. But online you can really do whatever you like and, and choose the level you want to study at, choose the pace you want to study at, click on any link you want to click on, explore this, take a break, go and do something else for a bit.
None of that you can do in an hour in a classroom.
[00:07:03] Speaker D: That's a good point because we were talking about duolingo as though that's your own. So that is not the only thing.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:10] Speaker D: But you're right. If you're online, you actually have a wide range of resources available to you.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah, certainly convenient.
Staying with the duolingo example, it's a hungry rhinoceros for sure, because it will. I have friends who say, yeah, I find myself doing my, my lesson at 11:45 at night. I've got to keep my streak going.
Which makes me think a lot of it is like, well, okay, there's the motivational aspect of the streak, which is a key feature of why it works. But how engaged is that person with that activity at that?
[00:07:44] Speaker B: They're not really learning.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: They're not really. They're not really learning. They're not really engaged either. And part of, part of me feels that the downside of the convenience of independent online learning is that you don't really have an accountability partner. The stakes aren't really very high in any classroom, in front of any teacher or any group of peers. Suddenly it matters because there are other people there who will have some kind of response or some kind of opinion or some kind of emotion in response to what you do or don't do.
And sometimes a teacher just doesn't really need to do anything other than to be there in order to get that effect, which I think as soon as the technology world is able to simulate that or to have. I don't. Maybe it can't. But as soon as, as soon as that aspect of some kind of.
I can't even express this properly. But yeah, where, where is it going? What's the. Who is on the receiving end of my language production?
[00:08:47] Speaker A: That's very true. But I mean, what I would say just to sort of extend on that really is that the, the lack of accountability partner is, you're absolutely right, a demotivator, but can also be the thing that a lot of students, especially with this epidemic of anxiety that we've got, is the thing they, they love about being online because they, they don't have to be accountable for, they say, or, you know, they can hide behind their screen and they don't have that threat of judgment, which you're right, doesn't help your learning at all. And I agree it's not relevant, but it is safe.
And I think why a lot of students are motivated by online learning is because they can sort of, do you think, hide, isn't it behind their screens a little bit or perhaps choose when they're accountable. So say, well, I'm going to post something when I'm good and ready to post it, I'm going to curate this video. I'm going to get it looking great, then I will post it when I'm ready to post it online. I mean, in classroom, you don't do.
[00:09:44] Speaker C: You know, I, I really enjoyed the part of the, the paper that you wrote which talked about using that time in the classroom to help students gain those very skills, which they're not. They don't, they're not required to learn in the online space.
You can't hide in the classroom in the same way that you can online. And I thought that was a really important point about the value of developing certain social skills, interpersonal skills through being in a physical classroom, which you don't have to do online.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: That's very true. I mean, I think the classroom can be seen as a space where you perform and receive that feedback, or it can be seen as that supportive incubator which allows you then to go off with confidence and perform online.
So I think we as teachers have to decide how are we using this space?
Is it just to provide students with that reassurance and give them the skills they need?
[00:10:38] Speaker B: I think maybe the.
Maybe getting ahead of the discussion here a little bit, but I think perhaps from what you've just said, Sorry, my brain is whirring at the moment.
It depends how we define our role as a teacher. Perhaps that's what's shifting as well, because instead of just being language teachers, we're teaching social interaction. We're teaching anxiety. Exactly. Yeah. Or anxiety.
We're helping create a more comfortable learning space because exercise anxiety will have a negative effect on the learning anyway. So we should be making a safe space as well as a. Yeah.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Sort of language rich guides, mentors, all that sort of thing.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's sort of coaching. I'm hesitant about using that word, but facilitating I like better.
[00:11:31] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Thank you. Hi, I'm Fiona Mauchlin. Nick and I teamed up with some amazing contributors to co author a position paper all about how motivation and social interaction go hand in hand in English language learning.
It's called the Human Connection, Motivation and Social Learning. And it's packed with insights.
We explore the benefits of face to face versus online learning and discover how to link learners online worlds with your classroom.
There are also some practical strategies to help you boost motivation in your classrooms.
Get the paper for free today by clicking on the link in the description.
[00:12:12] Speaker C: Can I ask the idea of the student who's hiding? That was your word, Nick. Who's hiding online? Is that a problem or is that a right.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: That's a good question, isn't it? And in classic. Yeah, I was just going to say, if a student does say, I'd prefer not to speak in today's lesson. Thank you. I know it's a speaking lesson, but you're putting me into pairs. I don't want to talk. I'm not friends with this person. I feel threatened.
Do you give them that right not to? I think that's a really good point.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Some students need time, don't they then? Well, they need time in the class to develop the confidence.
And that's a little bit true about, you know, the hiding thing maybe.
Particularly a student with anxiety issues might start learning in an asynchronous or even synchronous but online classroom where they can begin to feel comfortable enough and also connect with some other learners if they're in a group and from there join them or face to face. I'm not sure.
[00:13:22] Speaker D: You mentioned earlier a Gen Z stare.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm not an expert on this. I've read that, that there's a phenomenon of a Gen Z stare which is looking at someone as if you were looking at a screen and not moving straight to a verbal answer in a transactional situation.
[00:13:42] Speaker D: Right.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: Perhaps people watching us know more about this.
[00:13:46] Speaker D: Right.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: But the question is, is that something which in itself is now acceptable or is it my role as a teacher and someone from a different generation to help someone feel more safe, I guess, or comfortable to use your word, Fiona, in venturing to have a social exchange. And I guess it's a value question of is this, is this something about being a complete human being that you're able to engage in chit chat with strangers or is this a cultural, an outdated cultural behavior that is now no longer required?
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Don't think it's outdated.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Fascinating. I don't know. Yeah, I mean I think often as teachers perhaps we do need to respect students who don't feel ready or confident and I think things like getting them to write down what they would say instead of actually saying it.
Conversations on paper. So write something down like a question and give it to a student so they don't feel that sense. They can hide behind the pen in this case or type it up on so it appears on the screen. But I guess that is a way of allowing them to hide a little bit.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Is it really a generational thing or is it just culture? I mean different age groups is essentially a different culture but it's the same between certain nationalities. Some nationalities or cultures, to broaden it a bit, don't particularly do eye contact.
A lot of my students when they first meet me, there's a hierarchy thing. There's not particularly willing to make mistakes and frequently they, they do this for the first.
[00:15:36] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Yes. Month or so that they're in the classroom, they'll tend to cover their mouth.
[00:15:41] Speaker D: When they speak for people on audio. Fiona's covering her mouth.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Oh, I'm covering her mouth. Sorry.
[00:15:48] Speaker D: That.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: What is that?
[00:15:49] Speaker C: What do you read into that, that gesture?
[00:15:54] Speaker B: I'm not entirely sure. There's a, there's something about making the funny faces that we make when we speak English like the, the, you know, when your tongue is visible.
There's something about teeth.
[00:16:07] Speaker D: Slightly apologetic.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: Yes. Deferential. Covering the mouth.
[00:16:11] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: It's a little bit like lowering your eyes.
But if we're teaching a language depends rather what the, what they want the English for, I guess.
But for general communication, whether it's global English or to speak to native speakers, which it, it isn't frequently it isn't that nowadays it's a global business or similar and they do need to be able to communicate with different cultures and different generations.
[00:16:45] Speaker D: So I certainly feel, you know, from when I started teaching, where the, the emphasis was very much on teaching adults to where it is now, where it's very much focused on schools, children and interweaving of development of personal social skills with language learning, it's changed completely. So a lot of the methodology of adult language teaching, you know, has to shift anyways.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not a generous thing. I think we used to have this obviously idea of you present. They practice and then they produce. And I think we used to feel that, let's say you were being assessed in a lesson. If you hadn't got every student producing that target structure in a kind of relatively unstructured way, then you'd failed in the lesson. But I suppose nowadays there's two things you might say to that. One is that the aims of students perhaps may not be necessarily conversation. It could be to produce something they want to post or use or presentation. But I suppose the other thing is that you can learn language. We talk about passive social interaction, don't we? So watching even sort of videos online, whatever you're, you're kind of. There's a huge connection between both reading and listening and speaking.
And your ability to speak develops as you read fluently, as you learn to decode when someone is speaking.
So to assume that there's no. The targets aren't being met just because a student hasn't produced language in the class is perhaps a little bit, you know, beside the point or not so true as perhaps we used to think it was.
[00:18:25] Speaker D: Can I throw in one last question?
And that's peer to peer learning.
So perhaps a traditional approach, the teacher is almost talking individually to students who are listening, learning and responding.
I think now there's more acceptance that they learn. It's not just the motivation of the other students. They're actually learning from other students.
But not all teachers are comfortable with this. They feel they are the source of knowledge and their students are not. I mean, do you have a view on that? Do students learn from each other good things? I mean.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Well, they certainly get validation from each other, don't they? And the motivation, I guess if we're talking about motivation, would they value being praised by their peers more than, I mean, I think they would. I think if they've, let's say, posted something online and get likes from their own peer community, I think that is more valued by them than it is if the teacher says, I like that, maybe it's just me, I don't know.
I think as we get older as teachers, I'm talking about myself, but I do find that ability to have this sort of create that rapport with students more and more challenging.
I mean, thankfully, I think in ELT elite, you know, you do always have that ability to really bond and it's a wonderful profession I think, for that reason. But I think it is harder and the students are ever more surprised when I can understand references they make.
And I feel constantly a little bit more removed and that they would perhaps, yeah, perhaps not expect me to be on their sort of cultural level. I think having endorsement from peers for them is probably more valuable in my experience.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: I think also when you've got a time crunch for teaching, for example, if you're in a, in an exam preparation class. We haven't mentioned exams at all.
If you're in an exam preparation class, you've really got a kind of a deadline on, on your achievements in the sense that the date of the exam and you want to learn as much as possible before that time.
Working with others in the, in the group, working with peers, you do learn more. It's like if we go to like a creative writing workshop or a painting workshop or something, a one to one lesson with the teachers, one thing, you learn lots of techniques and stuff. But if you're in a group, just what you're observing is happening with the other people in the group. Not, not just what you're producing, but what they're producing. This is the same with the language. You're picking up bits and pieces.
So if I'm doing practice for a speaking exam and I'm with, you know, we're in a pair, then I can sort of steal bits of vocabulary and phrases that you said and it does speed up the learning.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: I think I agree 100% with you both. Peer learning for sure is something which is self evident.
What I'd, what I'd say to teachers listening is that there's a big difference between lesson one with a group and lesson 50 with a group and that you get there in the end to an environment, a culture in within your class of valuing peer learning. But in those first critical encounters, students are going to feel, not necessarily that they're safe. And so making sure that they feel safe is, is the first part. And perhaps Nick, you know, that student will want to hide it first.
[00:22:05] Speaker D: Great.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: In lesson one they can hide.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: And they come into lesson two thinking, I'm safe in this class. And then eventually that desire to learn through peer learning can be. Can be activated.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: We'll conscious, but. Sorry.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: No, no, no.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: I will say there's a big difference between getting them to. To light something. Be critical towards each other, though. And I don't know if you've ever been able to. But I've always said to students, you know, write, correct each other. I want you to say two sort of perhaps negative things and then perhaps two or three positive things as well. They will not say negative things. They will not correct each other. It's not their role. And if they do, it will be seen as critical. And, you know, there'd be. I. I think the teacher sometimes has to take the hit for that. You know, you're the one whose job it is to find negative things.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: So maybe not the first time. The first time you do it, they won't. About the second time and the third time.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Okay, I'll be patient.
[00:22:59] Speaker D: I think we're going to wrap up here. I think we've got a. We've had a really good discussion of the social dimension of the classroom, so thank you very much.
